Meet Steve


Show Notes

Tyler Smith interviews co-host Steve Nay, a tax professional and owner of Daybreak Tax, about his career in software and building a tax practice that serves small business owners.


[00:00] Steve: Hey there. I'm Steve.

[00:01] Tyler: And I'm Tyler. Welcome to It's Not About the Money, where we discuss a wide range of topics like entrepreneurship, leadership, productivity, and maybe even money.

[00:12] Steve: We are not here to bore you with financial jargon or the tax code, but we might, but not on purpose. We're just a couple of small business owners trying to make sense of the world one podcast at a time.

[00:24] Tyler: On today's episode, I will be interviewing my co host, Steve Nay, who's a tax professional and owner of Daybreak Tax, and we will be exploring his story of starting a business while working a full time job. Steve, most of the time that I've known you, I've considered you to be a computer programmer. Tell me about your professional career up to this point.

[00:46] Steve: That is an accurate assessment. Up to this point, I got a degree in computer science and started my career in some technology companies. I worked for an insurance tech company for a while. I worked for Amazon for four and a half years. During some of that time, let's see, I was interested in the Fire movement. Financial independence retire early. I think you've heard of that. Definitely.

[01:14] Tyler: Who hasn't been enchanted by that at some point, right?

[01:18] Steve: It's an alluring dream and one of the big blogs in the space. I don't know if he's still around. I haven't read him for a while. But was Mr. Money Mustache was very influential in my thinking early in my career until I had kids, and kids are expensive, so the priorities have shifted somewhat to making a good life for my family. In the meantime, instead of being super frugal and saving things for some future date where we can enjoy it all, it's more about enjoying life as we go along. Absolutely.

[01:58] Tyler: I think someone who works with people on their personal finances and on their budgets, that concept of prioritization and considering having a good life on top of your financial goals is something that we talk about a lot.

[02:13] Steve: Yeah.

[02:14] Tyler: So you've worked as a software engineer for a number of different companies, some of them quite large, if not most of them. But through the last few months of our friendship, just talking, you've told me about how you've started a business. Basically, I'd love to hear more about that, especially what is driving you to pursue additional work on top of your corporate job that you already have?

[02:41] Steve: Yeah, that is a great question. I do still, as you mentioned, work in the software industry. I'm currently doing more on the cybersecurity side at a tiny little company, which is also really fun. But what got me interested in having another job on top of all of that is kind of a long story. I mentioned my interest in the Fire movement, and I've been a longtime Winab user. You need a budget that's great. Budgeting software that really resonates with me. And I have also always loved doing my own taxes, which I have been told is rather unusual.

[03:26] Tyler: Well, you've been told correctly. I mean, I guess there are people that probably enjoy it, but I imagine.

[03:32] Steve: There are other people like me out there. But yes, not everybody likes doing their taxes and I do. So that kind of got the wheels turning early on. I used to listen to a podcast by a CPA named Andrew Carroll who runs a whole bunch of companies. One of them is CFO Andrew. He does taxes for individuals and solopreneurs and small businesses like that. Well, anyway, on his podcast at the time he was talking about, he was giving some advice to someone who wanted to get into the industry but didn't necessarily have a CPA at the time. And his recommendation was to become an enrolled agent, which is an IRS designation specifically for taxation. So it doesn't have all of the same educational requirements as a CPA, but it is focused primarily on taxes and has a lot of continuing education requirements around that. So being an enrolled agent means you're up to date on the tax code and you know, kind of what's going on there. So his recommendation was go do that and then start a business doing taxes and then kind of ease into it there, see what you like about it and if you want to grow into that kind of a practice and then you can add on other things later as well.

[05:04] Tyler: So let's back up for just a second. So you're in the software industry, you're a little bit of a personal finance nerd. You enjoy using, you need a budget to do your own finances and you like doing your own taxes. Can you tell me a little bit more about what it is about doing your taxes that you enjoy so much?

[05:23] Steve: Well, because I think it's a very.

[05:25] Tyler: Interesting question for sure. I wonder if it's like does it have to do with just having a really solid understanding of your own financial situation? Is it more about maximizing the refund that you're able to get from the IRS? What is it that appeals to you so much?

[05:45] Steve: Right, I think it's all of those things. And there's also a piece of doing taxes that's very similar to computer programming where you've got a system, whether that's the computer and the programming language or whether it's the tax code and your personal finances and you're trying to find the best solution. Sometimes it's straightforward and sometimes you have to get creative. But being able to put all of those pieces together and create something that works really well together, that is something that I find appealing about both of my careers.

[06:24] Tyler: So it sounds like problem solving and optimization are at the heart of that.

[06:29] Steve: Yeah, that's a great way to put it. There's also something that feels, I don't know, virtuous, I guess is kind of an odd way to describe it about it, but I remember my mom sitting down in the 90s with the paper tax forms that you could pick up at the public library and filling those all out by hand. And so she was always very in touch with our finances. And I suppose that's a big part of where I got my love for finances. Originally. It was just watching my mom do that, and that seemed like a cool thing to do. Interesting at the time.

[07:11] Tyler: So you have that childhood memory. That's interesting. I have a similar childhood memory of watching my own father fill out those same paper tax forms. And then later on, when I was in college and had kind of one of my first jobs that would require me to file my taxes, I remember him sitting down with me and going over a paper form, and I was quite bored by it.

[07:36] Steve: He was into it.

[07:37] Tyler: He was trying his best to get me excited. But I think for that first tax filing, it was like 99% him. And I was just kind of watching and hoping that he'd take care of it for me.

[07:49] Steve: Sure.

[07:49] Tyler: A way in which we're different, but anyway, we're not here to talk about me.

[07:53] Steve: Sorry.

[07:53] Tyler: I just thought it was cool that we had similar memories of our parents filling out those forms.

[07:59] Steve: Yeah, that's fun. Let's see. Okay, so going roundabout here yeah. Where did we leave off?

[08:06] Tyler: Well, you were talking about your path, or potential path maybe, towards pursuing becoming an enrolled agent. And I kind of wanted to ask you what are the different types of tax professionals you mentioned? I think one or two that you can become and what about being an enrolled agent is a good fit for your career and your goals right now?

[08:30] Steve: Yeah, there's lots of ways that you can prepare taxes and get paid to do it. You can be an unenrolled preparer as the technical term where you don't have to have any credentials at all. And as long as you are comfortable and know what you're doing, you can have people pay you to prepare their taxes. That's one option. On the other extreme is someone like a patent attorney where they are both an attorney and an expert in tax law. Those folks tend to focus more on dealing with cases that are going before the tax court. If you've got a dispute about whether something is taxable or that kind of a thing, the the most common credential for a tax preparer is a CPA certified public accountant. And that's the one that most folks are familiar with. They have had a lot of schooling, they've had a lot of experience in accounting firms, and generally there's a lot of ways you can go with a CPA, but a lot of them will focus on taxes and can be really good at that. There's also audit and there's public accounting and there's lots of other things you can do with CPA. So that's both a bit more general of a credential, but also a prestigious one.

[09:58] Tyler: So for just dipping your toes in and getting started in this career, it sounds maybe a little overkill.

[10:05] Steve: Yes. Right. Because I have an engineering degree and just a bachelor's, I don't have a master's. And so for me to become a CPA would require going back to school again to take at least some accounting classes and possibly get a Master's and then also have some experience working in another accounting firm. And passing the exams for the CPA is also a lot of work.

[10:33] Tyler: What are the exams like for becoming an enrolled agent? Because I believe you had to take some of those exams, right?

[10:39] Steve: Yes, you're right. So an enrolled agent, the thing that is appealing to me about that is that I can do it with the education that I already have. The Stipulation then, is there's three different exams that were, I think, about 3 hours long each that cover personal taxation, business taxation, and practicing before the IRS. Those are the three main topics. So there's a lot of studying you have to do beforehand, and then you can go take those exams. All through high school and college, I was very good at doing standardized tests for whatever reason. Just my brain works really well with those. And so that was not daunting to me, having to do all that studying and then go take a long standardized test. And it did take most of a year to do that studying, but I enjoyed it and passed all three of the exams on the first try.

[11:40] Tyler: Wow. Congratulations. That's awesome.

[11:43] Steve: Yeah. So then that was I don't know if we're this far on the story yet, but that was last year in February when I passed the or January when I passed the last of those exams. So I might be getting a bit ahead of myself here.

[11:56] Tyler: Oh, no, that's fine. You've talked a little bit about how you got interested in taxes in the first place and some of your inspiration for that and then why you've chosen the path of enrolled agent as an entry point into the career of tax preparation. I'm curious, at what point did you start contemplating starting a business, doing this, or actually finding clients and earning money by providing these services?

[12:26] Steve: Right, because the idea planted in my head from that Andrew Carroll podcast was probably five or eight years ago. I don't remember exactly.

[12:38] Tyler: So it's never marinating for a while.

[12:40] Steve: Yeah, it has. Yeah. And then in 2021, I think my wife and I and all the kids were driving from Austin to Houston for a day trip of some kind, and she was reading aloud this book. I don't even remember how we found it, but it was called all the Money in the World. And one of the chapters in there was talking about see, I don't even remember exactly, but the point that I took away from it was that if you run a business where you are going out and selling something and fulfilling it, you have more control over how much income you can bring in or not at a given time. And that was kind of what finally pushed me over the edge to say, maybe I should actually pursue this idea that I have been marinating on for years and years as a W Two employee. You can probably relate to this as well because I know you've had a career as an employee as well. It's easy to get into a mindset where the income is kind of fixed. You're getting as much money as you're getting, and that's all there's going to be. You can hope for a raise or a bonus or something, but that's kind of out of your control on the day to day basis.

[14:07] Tyler: Right.

[14:09] Steve: So this idea of, well, hey, I could go start a business and be in control of how much money comes in was liberating to that mindset. It sounds a little obvious to say that now, but it was kind of a revelation to me at the time of like, well, maybe this is the nudge that I need to finally go try that thing.

[14:32] Tyler: Right, yeah, no, I totally relate to that, actually. I mean, I have enjoyed and continue to enjoy my career as an employee. There's like a certain sense of stability, I guess, that comes with that fixed income that you were talking about. Not that any job is necessarily secure. A lot of it is out of our control, but at least the concept of getting a regular paycheck after showing up to work is there's some stability in that. But just like you, I've been considering, I guess you could call it side gigs or side jobs or maybe additional sources of income that I might be able to pursue. And I think part of what intrigues me about that is the same thing you're talking about, which is the ability to have some agency or some say or some degree of control over increasing my income as like a direct result of work that I'm putting in as opposed to just trading my time for a paycheck now. I think it's not that any business that I start would immediately scale so that I'm not trading time for money or anything like that, but having that degree of control is like, very attractive. That idea is very attractive. Yeah.

[15:45] Steve: And it's never that way at the beginning of any. But we know a point in the future where you can get leverage out of running a business that you can't get out of just being a W Two employee.

[15:57] Tyler: Exactly. Yeah. So all the money in the world, the books that you were listening to or having your wife read, or listening to your wife read, was a tipping point, it sounds like.

[16:09] Steve: I don't think we even finished reading that book, actually.

[16:12] Tyler: You got the inspiration you needed.

[16:14] Steve: That inspiration was enough of it yeah. To kick that off. So then I started studying for those exams, I think, later that year, and eventually passed them and got the enrolled agent credential. But it was a little too late in the season to start taking clients. Then it was February when I finally got it. So I kind of just spent the rest of that year this was last year 2022, just kind of getting things set up so that 2023, I could finally start serving real paying clients.

[16:47] Tyler: Yeah. Well, that's exciting. So I know both you and I in the past have dabbled with all kinds of ideas, whether it be blogging or social media, et cetera. So I'm curious, what's the difference, at least in my case, I can't speak for you necessarily, but none of those efforts really took off for me and definitely didn't become income generating. So what's the difference for you between past hobbies or efforts that you've put into putting yourself out there, whether for business or pleasure, I guess you could say. And this one where it seems like you've really doubled down and you're committed to this idea.

[17:27] Steve: Yeah, that's a great question. The things that I've tried before have all been, like, you say, blogging. I can think of at least one endeavor in that realm. I dabbled with creating a software product for a particular niche, but never got that off the ground. I think that the difference this time is that this is a service business. Service businesses are a lot easier to get started with. Like, getting the the distance between beginning the business and seeing a paycheck from a client is a lot shorter than content marketing or building a software product just because of the nature of the thing that you are delivering. So that's one of the big differences. The other is, I don't know, I feel like I've committed a lot more I've put in a lot more actual resources, time and money to getting this one started than I ever did any of those previous endeavors. So it feels a little more like, hey, I've got to actually make something out of this investment that I've begun.

[18:34] Tyler: Right.

[18:35] Steve: Yeah. And then by the time I got an actual paying client and saw the fulfillment all the way through, got their tax return filed and got paid, that was a very exciting thing. Like, it's kind of, I don't know, intoxicating, I guess, of, hey, I've delivered value for someone and it's actually working. This is maybe a legitimate business now.

[19:02] Tyler: Right? You got that feedback and it was a signal that this could work pretty early on, maybe.

[19:10] Steve: Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

[19:12] Tyler: There's a lot of discussion out there, especially in the Hustle culture on the Internet, about starting a business that follows your passion or pursuing a career that you're passionate about. And there's a big debate as to whether that's a good idea. But one of the thoughts that has stuck out to me in that conversation, and I think it's from author Cal Newport. He has a book so good they can't ignore you. At least this idea comes from him. In my memory. We might have to double check that, but if not anyway, the concept is good, which is seeing that money come in as kind of validation of the idea can create passion in a way that just following your passion might not be able to sustain over the long term. Right. It becomes like a feedback loop. So you put out something of value, or that you hope will be of value into the world, somebody pays you for it, and that generates the excitement that you need to keep going. As opposed to, I love doing taxes. I don't know how long you would love to continue doing taxes, especially for other people, if you never had that payoff.

[20:18] Steve: I guess. Yeah, that makes sense. Seeing the validation of the idea is inspiring.

[20:25] Tyler: I mean, you said what was the word you used? It was intoxicating or intoxicating.

[20:29] Steve: Yeah. Exhilarating.

[20:30] Tyler: Right to your head.

[20:31] Steve: Yes.

[20:33] Tyler: That's cool. Okay, so walk me through. So now you're an enrolled agent. You've passed your tests. You finished that process up a little bit too late in the tax season to really start taking clients. And this is in 2022, I think you mentioned, right?

[20:48] Steve: Yes, that's right.

[20:49] Tyler: So between then and now, how is the business going? Have you been able to land clients? What has that process been like? And what has been maybe the biggest hurdle to overcome in getting your business started now that you've got the Credential?

[21:05] Steve: I have, yes, been able to serve probably twelve or so clients so far this year. And we're just past the deadline, the tax deadline for 2023 as we're recording this. So that's pretty good for a first season. That's fantastic. Yeah. The biggest hurdle for me has been not the getting of the Credential and the passing of the exams, although those were big hurdles to clear, but it's been more of on the networking side. And I'm an introvert, and so I don't naturally like to go socialize with other people. But as I've kind of pushed through that discomfort and gotten out there and met other business owners, they're just fascinating people and they have fascinating businesses. So it's been very rewarding to have done that. And those relationships have been the biggest source of leads for new clients, whether it's they themselves or referrals of other folks they know who are looking for a tax preparer. That's kind of been the most difficult thing. And also the biggest payoff so far has just been building relationships with other business owners.

[22:26] Tyler: So even though you would classify yourself or characterize yourself as an introvert, you recognize the importance of getting out there. I mean, letting people know right, that you have a business, that you have a service to offer, connecting with them, and as a result of that, generating referrals. That's a beautiful story. I hope it continues to go well as it has.

[22:48] Steve: Yeah. And I feel very lucky at the moment that my income from this business is kind of immaterial to the functioning of my life. Life will keep going on because I've got the salary from the regular W two job. So I can afford to be patient and to not have to sell super hard. I can just be out meeting people and trying to help them out, even if it doesn't mean they become a client. That's kind of secondary, which has been really nice in that I don't feel a lot of pressure in those situations to be like I've I've got to sell you something because I need to put food on the table. I can just be there and hear your story and learn about you and if I have something to offer, then I can offer it, and if not, then we'll keep in touch and maybe something will come of it later.

[23:38] Tyler: Right. You're not needy and neediness can really drive people away, potential clients, I feel like.

[23:44] Steve: Yes, I agree.

[23:46] Tyler: Well, I think the concept of networking, of growing a referrals based business will probably be a recurring theme on this podcast because both of us are in similar type of situation and we're hoping to talk to other people who are also growing small businesses in similar ways and learning about their experiences. So I'm sure we'll have a lot more to talk about when it comes to that as the episodes move forward.

[24:14] Steve: Yes.

[24:15] Tyler: So we talked about your biggest hurdle. What has been the most exciting part or the best part about launching your business?

[24:23] Steve: I think again, there my answer would be that just meeting other business owners, other fascinating people, and learning about what it is they're passionate about, how their business runs, what kinds of solutions they're putting out into the world that I never knew existed. Like, for example, last week or the week before, I met a wedding official. She conducts wedding like she's the person that performs the actual ceremony in the wedding. And I had never met anyone like that before who was not a member of a clergy or a government employee. And so it was just fascinating to get to know her and how she got into the business and what it is that she loves about it and what aspect of it that she's really good at. Her particular angle on it.

[25:16] Tyler: I didn't even know that was a business, but now it kind of makes me want to look into that. It sounds fun, sounds very rewarding. I'd probably cry a lot with joy if I was involved in that. Wow, that's interesting. So you and I were chatting the other day, as we often do behind the scenes and you made a comment to the effect of have you ever just sat back and realized, hey, I'm a business owner now? It seems like that kind of struck you in that moment. Can you tell me a little bit more about that moment? Does this seem real yet even though you have clients, you're earning money?

[25:55] Steve: Yeah, it does. There have been a couple of points in the last few months where that has hit. I think the first one was when that very first client paid me. Like, the return has been filed, everything signed, we're all done. And then the invoice lands and I got paid for that first little bit of work. That was kind of the moment. Well, we talked about this, the moment of like, hey, it's actually working. Like something is happening here. It still felt at that moment like, well, yes, that paycheck came in, but it could all fall apart tomorrow. Like, maybe there will be no more clients after this one.

[26:34] Tyler: Well, I mean, I get that's always true, but yes.

[26:40] Steve: But as, as the months have gone on and I've gotten a few more clients and been able to learn, like, so much about the tax code and things, you know, I learned a whole lot during the studying for the exams. But actually, where the, where the rubber meets the road, there's so much more that I didn't know yet that I know now, and I'm sure that will be true for a few years from now, at least, if not forever. Probably forever, actually, because the tax code is always changing.

[27:13] Tyler: That's right. You'll never run out of things to learn.

[27:17] Steve: Right. But as of, I don't know, a couple of weeks ago, I think it was after I had gone to one of these networking events and had come away feeling not like an impostor of, oh, hey, I'm here pretending to be a business owner, but actually, like, no, I am a business owner. I run a thing. I provide value to clients. I'm just here on my own terms. I can help you or I can just get to know you. And either one is fine. And I just felt legitimate at that moment, I guess. Yeah. So that was kind of the realization that prompted the comment I made to you.

[27:56] Tyler: That's great. It's like you feel like you belong in that space with other people who are running businesses.

[28:01] Steve: Yeah, exactly.

[28:03] Tyler: Very cool. So one of the questions I've been thinking about a lot myself, but that I'd like to put to you since this episode. We're talking about your journey into business ownership. Is that for a podcast that talks about small business ownership and earning money and taxes and personal finance, et cetera? Our podcast is called it's not about the money. So how do you think this title applies to you in your current situation and your pursuits? And what does that mean to you.

[28:38] Steve: At the moment for me, since I do still have a day job that's paying the bills. This business endeavor has been a chance to experiment and see, is this something that I really enjoy? Is it something that people value, that I can make something in the world improve someone's life and make life for a business owner easier? Because they're not so concerned about their taxes, they're not worried about their financials. They can just focus on the thing that they really love doing. So the opportunity to do that in a safe spot where I'm not feeling needy has been really great. And that's probably the first sense of it's not about the money, where it's literally not like the money that's coming in is all going to get plowed back into growing the business. So I'm not going to see any of that for a while and that's perfectly fine.

[29:40] Tyler: Right.

[29:41] Steve: And then the other sense that I would say is that the thing that I am finding that I really enjoy doing is helping business owners get peace of mind about whatever it is, their their taxes, their finances, their bookkeeping. And that's where the name of my firm came from, daybreak Tax of sort of you may have been in this long night of uncertainty anxiety. You don't know what's going on. You really don't want to think about this thing, but it needs to get done. We can kind of be the day breaking of, hey, it's going to be all right. We'll take care of you and you can get back to doing the thing that you love. And that is not about the money, really. It's more about the emotions, the psychology. The money needs to be there to make the business run. But that's not why you got into the business. And that's not the thing that is ultimately going to give you peace. It's not about helping the business owner find more money or make sure that the money is going to the right places. It's more about helping them understand it and be at peace with it, so they don't have to be anxious and be worried about what's going on. They can understand, hey, everything's in the right place. I don't have to worry about that. And I can get back to the thing that I really love about the business, which is making soap or helping folks book travel or helping two people have an amazing wedding or whatever it might be. The thing that they're really good at, that they really love doing. Right.

[31:34] Tyler: Or coaching.

[31:36] Steve: Or coaching, exactly.

[31:39] Tyler: Well, I could testify to the value that your services provide. This was my first year filing taxes as a small business owner. I did not use your services, I'm sorry. But I do have an accountant and it was very refreshing and relieving. It was a relief to be able to go in, bring all the paperwork, my records of expenses and things, and basically just. Dump it on his desk and then walk out with a completed tax return without any stress or anxiety. It's great.

[32:13] Steve: Yeah, it's amazing.

[32:14] Tyler: So I think what you're talking about is truly valuable in that sense because I've experienced it.

[32:22] Steve: That's great to hear.

[32:24] Tyler: I think it's fair to say that you're still at the beginning of your business, or very near the beginning.

[32:31] Steve: Yes, that's fair to say.

[32:33] Tyler: So what advice would you give to someone who is in your shoes maybe a year ago or six months ago, who's either thinking about starting a small business, whether it's related to tax preparation or not, some kind of service business, perhaps. And yeah, just to get them through that first through the threshold of beginning the business.

[32:54] Steve: Okay. I would say if you have found a thing that really interests you, that you think you will be good at and that has value in the marketplace that people will pay you to do as long as you've got the safety net under you where you can experiment with that and try it out. I would say go for it and see see what comes of it. And it may turn out to be nothing, or it may turn out to be a failure, or it may turn out to be something that you really love that becomes lucrative for you, but there's no way to know until you give it a try. So I would say do as much research as you need to feel assured that it is a thing that might work, but don't overanalyze it. At some point, you just got to jump in and start doing the work. Years and years of thinking about it. Well, in my example, for example, I thought about this for years and years, but it wasn't until I finally took the leap and did the studying, passed the exams, and even that at that point, which was a year ago, didn't have any paying clients. So I had to take the additional steps of, okay, I'm actually going to go try and meet people, start putting together some marketing, take the leap into it and find out if it's going to work great.

[34:20] Tyler: So just go and do and see what happens and use that feedback to inform your decisions about whether to keep going and for how long, it sounds like.

[34:32] Steve: Yeah.

[34:33] Tyler: So I'm curious, in a service like tax preparation, it seems like you kind of have built in demand in that it's the law, right, for everybody to file their taxes?

[34:45] Steve: It is.

[34:45] Tyler: Did that help you feel more confident in the beginning that this is something that you would be able to pull off or were you still worried and maybe even insecure about other aspects, like, yeah, sure, everyone has to do it, but do they really want it? How will I personally build a clientele or anything like that?

[35:06] Steve: Yes, it is the law. Everybody has to do it depending on how complicated your tax situation is. The software out there, the TurboTax, the H and R Block, whatever, are really great for a lot of folks. And that's all you need. Like, you don't need a tax pro if you just got a W two and a few simple other things, that's all. Like, you don't need to hire me for that. You can do it yourself. But there are a lot of reasons why even for simple situations where maybe you just don't want to do it, you don't want to deal with the headaches of that. I had at least one client this year that they could have done it themselves and it would have been pretty easy. But they're like, we have in the past, we're done. We want to have somebody else take on that stress for us.

[35:57] Tyler: That's me.

[35:59] Steve: Exactly.

[36:00] Tyler: Yeah, that is exactly me.

[36:01] Steve: So I provide value on that side and on the business owner side that's I think where the bigger market is. And that's the side of it that also interests me more because there's more going on, there more complexity, more puzzles to solve. I'm still trying to figure out pricing and exactly where do I fit in the market as far as that goes. Because at the beginning, I didn't feel like, oh, well, I can just go charge as much as this CPA who's been doing it for 20 years, because that seems to be the market price. Right. And I didn't feel secure doing that. And as time has gone on and I've learned more about from this experimentation of what are folks willing to pay, as I've experimented with pricing and seen the value that they are getting out of it, I've become more confident in that, and that will continue to evolve through the next season and beyond. But that was probably the biggest hurdle for me, was getting over the kind of getting out of my own head about it. Like, yes, there is demand and yes, folks are going to pay for it, but can I let myself charge what these services are actually worth to people.

[37:29] Tyler: As a new entrant?

[37:31] Steve: Basically, yeah.

[37:32] Tyler: Right. Great. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about that we haven't covered so far?

[37:39] Steve: I don't think so. I think that's good enough for now, and I'm sure we'll talk more about each of us and our businesses as we go along in the podcast, but I think as an introduction, that covers all the bases. Great.

[37:57] Tyler: Well, Steve, I really appreciate you sharing so much about your journey into small business ownership and your preparation to become a tax pro and how your business is going so far.

[38:08] Steve: Thank you for all the great questions. This has been fun. Absolutely.

[38:12] Tyler: I'm looking forward to continuing this together. And we will see you on the next episode of It's Not About the Money.

[38:20] Steve: Hopefully I will turn the tables on you. We'll learn more about your business yes, that'll be fun.

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