Optimizing For Serendipity


Show Notes

Do the best things in life come from planning or from serendipity? Tyler and Steve explore this question and give some ideas about how to welcome more serendipity into your life.

  • (00:00) - Fitness
  • (02:31) - "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face"
  • (04:21) - Spontaneity
  • (07:42) - Building your network
  • (18:17) - Social media
  • (21:01) - Reading books
  • (23:15) - "Successful careers are not planned. They develop."
  • (25:24) - Boredom and creativity



[00:00:00] Tyler: So Steve, I don't know if I've told you about my obsession lately with the concept of fitness and I, it applies to all kinds of fitness, physical fitness, financial fitness, which is something I think a lot about with my clients. Mental fitness, emotional fitness, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But it's a really simple idea. Basically the idea is if you go to the gym for nine hours, you're not gonna become fit. In fact, more likely than that, you'll hurt yourself or never wanna work out again. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like if you just go to the gym all day, right. You'll probably hurt yourself. You'll probably get sick to your stomach.

I've experienced this when I am like, I am gonna start working out when I go for like a run a really, that's much longer than I'm capable of running at that point. And, you know, I've become nauseous, whatever, right? And then I never, I'm like, well, running is the worst. I'm never gonna run again.

[00:00:50] Steve: Right.

[00:00:51] Tyler: An opinion that I hold to this day.

I mean, I, I hate writing, but anyway, that's besides the point.

Um, It also applies with financial fitness. We talk about this with my clients sometimes. One of the characteristics of someone who's fit is that they're less prone to injury physically, financially, et cetera. Or if you do get injured, you're more likely to recover sooner.

You're just basically not as, beat down when bad things happen. Right? And this is why the concept of emergency funds or saving for a rainy day applies to financial fitness. Something bad could happen and drain your finances down to zero, but that's a heck of a lot better than having them drain down to negative 20,000 because you had to take out credit card loans to, to survive, right?

So anyway, concept of fitness. So I hired a fitness coach last week because I am interested in improving my physical fitness. And yeah, I, I, I'm pretty excited about it. I think I'm hoping that he can do for me what I'm doing for my clients in helping me succeed where I have failed so many times before in the realm of physical fitness.

[00:01:57] Steve: Okay. Yeah, I'm interested to hear how that goes for you.

[00:02:00] Tyler: Yeah. I'll keep you posted.

[00:02:06] Steve: Hello there. Dear listener, I am Steve.

[00:02:09] Tyler: And I'm Tyler, and this of course is, It's Not About the Money where we discuss a wide range of topics related to creating and running small businesses.

[00:02:18] Steve: Tyler and I are small business owners ourselves just trying to make sense of the world, one podcast at a time. Today we are gonna talk about a subject that I heard on a podcast that I listened to is a guy named Jason Staats. He, his audience is accountants or like accounting firm runners specifically, or owners.

Anyway, he's, he's hilarious, but he's got a YouTube channel and a podcast. Anyway, he has an episode, from a couple weeks ago, I think, called "How to Become the Luckiest Accountant," and that was intriguing. So I listened to it

[00:03:01] Tyler: Do accountants believe in luck?

[00:03:04] Steve: well I, I'll let you decide that for yourself, I guess. The main thing that he talked about in, in this episode was not locking down your life so much that you miss the opportunities that come by. He said something like the, the majority of the best things that will happen in your life will not be because of planning, but because of serendipity. So you can and this is similar to the the idea of, what's the quote?

" No plan survives contact with the enemy," or, "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face," or you know, whatever those, those quotes.

[00:03:41] Tyler: Yeah. "Men Plan and God laughs," all those. Yeah. Yeah,

[00:03:45] Steve: Right? And you know, in tandem with like, "Plans are worthless, but planning is everything," or whatever that quote is.

[00:03:52] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:54] Steve: So like it's good to have plans, but you should also be open to opportunities coming along that you didn't expect or meeting someone new that gives you a great idea and you say, Hey, I want to take that and run with it.

So anyway, I just wanna talk about how do you, how do you optimize for serendipity without being too uh, laissez-faire about it.

[00:04:21] Tyler: Well, where do you feel you fall on the spectrum? I'm curious, yeah. Of someone who wants to control and plan everything versus take life as it comes.

[00:04:31] Steve: Well I am very much on the planning side. Like, I like to know I have my ducks in a row and know how things are gonna go, and I don't like surprises. Most of the time.

[00:04:41] Tyler: Okay.

[00:04:42] Steve: Birthday surprises are okay, but, but not like, Hey uh, tonight you have this project that's happening. Surprise,

[00:04:51] Tyler: Yeah. Unpleasant surprises. Yeah.

[00:04:53] Steve: Unpleasant surprises. Yeah, sure. There you go.

[00:04:55] Tyler: Do you avoid being spontaneous? Like does it make you uncomfortable or are you more, I don't think anyone likes negative surprises. But what about just like, oh, time to go on a road trip. I wasn't planning on, or let's go to, I don't know, like doing something fun on, on a whim or something.

Is that where?

[00:05:14] Steve: Yeah. Well, I'm not, I'm not totally against those things, and I think I have mellowed doubt as, as I've gotten older and gotten married and had four kids. You know, that you kind of, you have to roll with the punches more.

[00:05:25] Tyler: Oh, interesting.

[00:05:27] Steve: So I think I have mellowed out there,

[00:05:29] Tyler: You're becoming wise

[00:05:30] Steve: Becoming wise

[00:05:31] Tyler: in your old age.

[00:05:31] Steve: I suppose so. In my old age.

[00:05:33] Tyler: For the record, Steve is not old, but

[00:05:35] Steve: Not yet. My kids the other day, oh, they filled out, hold on, I'm gonna find it.

[00:05:43] Tyler: Okay.

[00:05:44] Steve: Let's see. Okay. My kids for Father's Day filled out these little sheets of like about my dad. My dad's name is whatever he is. His job is whatever. And most of them got my age correct. But one of them said I was 15, so that's, that's good.

[00:06:07] Tyler: Take it as a compliment. Yeah.

[00:06:10] Steve: relatively speaking.

[00:06:11] Tyler: To them, 15 is probably ancient.

[00:06:13] Steve: That's ancient.

Yeah, exactly.

[00:06:15] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:06:16] Steve: So they think I'm old and, and they call it 15. That's, that's not so bad.

[00:06:20] Tyler: So, yeah, I, I love, I, I you unwittingly picked a topic that I have thought a lot about and just love, I love this idea. I, I, I wanna get into talking about how to optimize your life for serendipity and to take advantage of luck. But I have to say, I, I often think of life as like a, a, a bowling alley where you've got bumpers like I, and this is just all those quotes you mentioned.

It, it, it's the same idea, but it's, I really strongly believe that it's important to have direction and to be moving, having some kind of momentum in your life. And that's infinitely better than, than not having it. Because even if you're going the wrong way, you'll bounce off of something. You'll get feedback from someone or from, you know, experience some consequences to your choices.

And then you'll have more information and you can change your direction. Getting that momentum, I think is greatly assisted by having plans, right? You gotta have some kind of goal and you make plans to, to achieve that goal, and then just kind of like see where it takes you and it's not always where you expect.

For example, I had no plans to be doing a podcast with you ever, but here we are.

[00:07:28] Steve: Mm-hmm. I like that idea of You're continuously learning from what happens and adjusting and, and you may not end up where you thought you were gonna go, but that's okay.

[00:07:42] Tyler: Yeah. So on this podcast that you listened to, did he have any suggestions or tips for how to optimize your life for taking advantage of serendipity?

[00:07:54] Steve: His advice was primarily around don't get so locked down or overscheduled or over committed that you don't have room for trying out new things or meeting new ideas, opportunities, that kind of stuff uh, which I think is useful.

[00:08:20] Tyler: totally. I guess a more interesting question to me is what has your personal experience been like with, with this? Have you noticed, like, did, do you feel like, what do you feel like his claim has been true in your experience? That you know, most of the great, the big breaks that you have in life come not as a result of a plan, but as of luck basically.

[00:08:43] Steve: Yeah, I think I do agree with that. Yes. In the sense of, well, here's an example. College I think is these days at least potentially less useful as a way of getting a credential for your career than it is for building a network of people that that may be similar or different from you. That you can kind of come back to over and over again throughout your life just because it's such an intense time period.

You're, you're all there together in a, in this kind of pressure cooker environment where you, you just build relationships very easily in, in that. And once you get out into your career, into middle age, it's, it's so much harder to make friends and meet new people and that kind of stuff. So having an environment like that, especially at the beginning of your adult life, I think is really valuable.

And I don't know what that will look like in, you know, when my kids are college age, if they're even gonna go to college or if they'll do vocational school or some other kind of training or, or whatever it might be. It could be different than it was for you and I or our parents, and I'm interested to see what that looks like for them.

But anyway, that, for me at least, I am very grateful that I had that kinda of an experience in college. It got me, yes, a degree that led to my primary career, which I'm still using, but it also, I introduced me to a whole lot of people that I wouldn't have met otherwise. And a lot of ideas and opportunities that I wouldn't have encountered anywhere else.

[00:10:30] Tyler: You and I met in college, technically speaking on Twitter.

[00:10:36] Steve: Yes.

[00:10:36] Tyler: at college. Yeah, we went to the same college. We didn't know each other from college life. I think we met on our, we crossed paths on Twitter, if I remember correctly,

[00:10:45] Steve: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, Twitter is another one. Or old Twitter. Anyway I don't care for Twitter anymore. I've been off for years and years, but,

[00:10:54] Tyler: I thought

[00:10:54] Steve: Twitter in the early days was also that kind of a, an environment and I, I met a lot of great people that I'm still in touch with today through Twitter.

Well, including you.

[00:11:04] Tyler: Yeah. Yeah. As did I, I think this principle as a principle has borne out true in my life as well. I mean, I, you know, it's like not either or, you know, you should make plans, you gotta have plans, you gotta have direction, like I said, or else nothing, you know, nothing good will likely happen. I guess luck is an element of it, but something I've noticed is ever since graduate school I have never gotten a job that I applied for, not for lack of trying.

I've applied for a lot of jobs, but I never got any of 'em that I applied for. And all the jobs that I did get, I did not apply for, which I guess is the same saying the same thing a different way. And I just find that endlessly fascinating, including my current job, which I applied for, I did not apply for.

I applied for a different job in the same company, got went through the interview process, et cetera. They did not hire me. They called me like a few days later or a few weeks later and they're like, Hey, we have this other job though, like, would you be interested in this? And I was, and it's been awesome.

I love it, but it wasn't the job that I applied for. Right. I don't, I just find that interesting. I, it's always come from someone knowing about an opportunity and referring me. Or inviting me to come interview or something like that. So it's, yeah, when I hear people frustrated about, oh, I, I'm applying for all these jobs.

I'm not getting inter any interviews. Like, yeah, me too. Like, I think that's just how I don't, I don't know. It seems like all the best jobs come from connections. Right? And just random Yeah, I mean, oh, now I'm getting worried about saying luck so much. Cause I, I do think you gotta put yourself out there, you gotta put yourself in places where these things happen.

But you don't have a lot of control, I guess is what I'm saying.

[00:12:44] Steve: Right. And I think that is kind of the point that seems most useful to me is you have to put yourself out there, like you said you have to be in those situations and maybe something will happen and maybe it won't, and that's, that's beyond your control. But you can get there. You can get yourself there to be open to those things.

[00:13:04] Tyler: Can we talk about like just some, some of the very many ways that exist to do that, to put yourself out there and increase the odds of luck favoring you.

[00:13:14] Steve: Yeah, let's do it.

[00:13:17] Tyler: So I think one of the easiest, well, actually it's kind of hard for me, but one of the like lowest hanging fruits with regard to this is just having a good answer ready for small talk questions. Like, how have you been and what are you up to these days, it's so easy for me to just be like, oh, I've been good.

You know, things are good, works good, family's good, whatever, whatever, whatever. Or what have you been up to? Oh, just work. Just work. You know, that's very easy. That's like, you know, What I say most of the time actually. But

[00:13:45] Steve: that's kind of what people are generally expecting you to say

[00:13:48] Tyler: yeah. Yeah. And that's good to keep in mind. I mean, I don't think you need to go off on like a 15 minute exposition of what you're up to, you know?

Or like loop them into your sales pitch, but


[00:13:59] Steve: if you can lead with something that's interesting and then they're like, oh, well, tell me more about that. Or maybe they just leave it and they say, okay, great. You know, then, then you can kind of gauge how, how much do we wanna go into this right now in this conversation?

[00:14:11] Tyler: Exactly, and more than likely nothing happens. And that's fine. This actually gets to one of the key misconceptions about networking that just drives me nuts. I, I've given a lot of guest lectures at the local university in my field. A lot of students have a lot of concern about how to get a job, how to get an internship.

Many of their questions are basically, will you hire me? But in the guise of something else, right? Like, here's my question. And also, are you hiring? Which is like a legitimate question, right? I have no problem with that, but I try to always tell them, it's like networking. Maybe this is such a cliche, I don't know, but it's like, It's building a net.

Like I'm not a fisherman, I'm not qualified to talk about this, but I feel like people who fish with nets, I don't know, it seems, I don't, I don't understand how it works, but the concept to me is like you build a net. The bigger your net, the wider it's gonna cast. And like every interaction with you have people that you have with people is just building onto your net, right?

You can't really control what floats through and what gets caught in that net. But what you can control is, You know, maintaining the net cleaning, the net strengthening the net, I don't know, making it bigger. And like you, you don't do it. You never approach someone in the moment of meeting them, networking with them, typically, and like ask for something.

You just wanna establish the net so that someday when an opportunity floats through the net, they will think of you. Right. And then potentially, I don't know. That's kind of

[00:15:41] Steve: Oh, that's a great analogy. I like that.

[00:15:43] Tyler: yeah.

[00:15:43] Steve: It's easy to remember too. Networking.

You're building a net

[00:15:46] Tyler: I know. That's why I wonder. It's, that's gotta be a cliche. Like that cannot be your original thought.

But I, I, I haven't heard anyone obsessed with it about as, as much as I have. But, so anyway, so yeah, I think that's an easy thing. Just, just have, just have a ready answer. It's like, you know, you are starting a tax prep business. We started a podcast like, that's like interesting. I mean, he is like, how's it going?

Oh, it's been crazy. I started a podcast with my friend. That's all I have to say.

[00:16:11] Steve: Yeah. And then, and then maybe they wanna know about the podcast and then they're like, oh, it's about small business. Okay, I'm not interested.

[00:16:17] Tyler: Sure.

[00:16:18] Steve: That's fine. Or maybe they're like, oh, well I've always wanted to start something, and

[00:16:23] Tyler: Yeah, and you also never know when the person that you're talking to is like maybe potential, like a potential, like a super connector or like someone who is gonna leverage your own efforts unexpectedly in some way. Like maybe they share it on their social media or something. You don't ask them to, you're not expecting them to.

But anyway, you get the idea.

[00:16:43] Steve: Yeah, so I really like this idea of just having a ready answer so that when someone comes along who is interested to hear about your story, you're, you have already signaled that you are available to talk about it. I like that. I also like the idea of, Connecting with people just for the sake of connecting with them, just to build the network, not to ask for anything, not to sell them anything, just you want to get to know them. You learn about what they do,

[00:17:18] Tyler: Exactly.

[00:17:19] Steve: make them feel like the most interesting person in the world.

[00:17:22] Tyler: Yeah. And just be, yeah, be honest, be sincere, don't, you know, have an agenda. I think, you know, I was listening to a conversation today or a lecture more like by a former pharmaceutical salesperson and he said that he was massively successful, top 5% of sales reps. Just because he tried to be honest with the doctors that he was selling to, meaning if they were interested in a product that he knew wasn't good, even if they really wanted it, he'd be like, I mean, if you really want it, you can try it, but it's not good here.

Like, why don't we talk about something that I think that I know from working at this company, like actually is good. So I just think that's a, that's a great case study for honesty and authenticity in everything that you do, because if you're doing what you're doing, The people who are interested in what you're doing will find you eventually and, and it'll work out.

[00:18:16] Steve: Yeah.

[00:18:17] Tyler: What else Besides just having, you know, besides having a ready answer, what, what else they think are, are some ways to increase the odds of serendipity helping us out.

[00:18:27] Steve: Well, we've mentioned social media a little bit. I, I'm not super plugged into social media anymore, although I was, when I was younger and met a lot of interesting people that way. Some of them that I'm still in touch with and they're still super interesting. And so that's, I don't know where I'm going with this exactly, but just trying to uh, having people around you who are doing interesting things that spark ideas for you especially when you can play off of each other and you know, come up with something that neither of you would've thought of on your own.

Having people around like that. Uh, Is really fun.

[00:19:11] Tyler: Yeah, so choose your friends. Well, it sounds like, or your associates, people you spend time with, whether that's virtual or in person. I mean, you've been going to a lot of in-person networking events lately. That sounds like that's been a blast.

[00:19:24] Steve: Mm-hmm. I do enjoy those as, as uh, Difficult as it is uh, for me to put myself out there in, get into the space. Once I'm there, I'm always glad that I went.

[00:19:39] Tyler: Oh, that's just like me and board games. Like I never. Want to play board games, ever. And it's really hard to get me to play a board game with you. Like, I will kick against the pricks, I'll fight it, but then, you know what, it's always a good time. I don't get it. I don't know. So yeah, it's, it's one of those things.

Yeah, I think social media can be really powerful. I'm also not really into it in terms of like the fast paced versions of it these days, but I've been seriously considering Making YouTube videos, not in like a serious like production kind of way, but I get a lot of repeat questions from my clients and I've thought about what, you know, what would happen if I just, whenever I get notice, a question come up multiple times, what if I just made like a short, simple video about, you know, addressing that question and then just release it into the world. I mean, who kn I have zero expectations. You know, I'm not trying to start a YouTube channel. I'm not trying to become a YouTuber. I'm not, I'm just trying to create some kind of useful free resource that someone might, you know, it's expanding the net.

Maybe someone will come across it someday. Maybe it'll be useful to them. Just providing value in kind of like those more evergreen ways online instead of like when I was on Twitter where it was just like you had to be a machine, right? You're posting multiple times a day just to get any

[00:20:55] Steve: Right.

[00:20:57] Tyler: traction there.

So, I dunno, that's something I've been thinking about.

[00:21:01] Steve: I like that idea. Another idea I'll mention is reading a lot of books, so. I like to think that I read a lot of books. I don't know that I actually read a lot of books, but I do like to read and I come across so many interesting ideas, reading books. And I try to vary it a little bit, like have some fiction, have some non-fiction, have some self-help, have some business books, you know, and, and hopefully things that are like outside of what I would normally read occasionally as well, just to kinda expand those horizons a little bit, think in a different way,

[00:21:43] Tyler: So how does that apply to serendipity? You're saying by reading a variety of books you'll expose yourself randomly in theory to like different ideas that

[00:21:51] Steve: different ideas, and yeah.

[00:21:53] Tyler: something for you. That's cool. I like that. I like, you know, I like that you read a lot of different books. Something I've been more conscious of, in my reading lately is, is, is purposefully reading things that I don't agree with. You know? I mean, and often you don't know, I mean, until you read it, you don't know if you agree with it a lot of times. Right. But, but I think that's so cool because it, it becomes a conversation at that point instead of an echo chamber.

I. So I think that, I don't know, something I've been thinking about. It's to say, yeah, just bouncing ideas around serendipitously you can synthesize new ideas and get in inspiration that way.

[00:22:33] Steve: Mm-hmm. I do like that idea of uh, challenging yourself in a way. That you're not just letting into your echo chamber, just the things that you already agree with, but that you purposely bring in challenging things as well.

[00:22:51] Tyler: And for me, that's usually in the form. I mean, I, I, you know, that's why the classics exist. A lot of what I read in that, classify in that department would be like more, you know, something that's proven the test of time, it's ideas that have held up for a long time. That are, that, that are challenging often, you know, so, which is why they could be hard to read, but, but it's, it's been fruitful.

I think so,

[00:23:12] Steve: Mm-hmm.

[00:23:15] Tyler: So I, I have a favorite uh, speaking of reading. I've got a favorite author when it comes to the business world, Peter Drucker. If you've read, done a lot of business reading it's likely you've heard of him or read something, or read something that's been influenced by his ideas. And he has a lot to say about this topic, actually, serendipity, when it comes specifically to managing your career.

He has a very short piece called Managing Oneself. I'm not even sure where you can get it. I got it on Amazon as like a, an ebook, but it's almost like the length of a paper rather than a book. It's very short. It's like a pamphlet almost, but it's about how to manage your career successfully. And one of the lines from that work, I guess we could call it adventure, it goes like this: "Successful careers are not planned." So that kind of goes with what we've been talking about, right? He goes on, "they develop when people are prepared for opportunities because they know their strengths, they know their method of work, and they know their values. Knowing where one belongs can transform an ordinary person, hardworking and competent, but otherwise mediocre into an outstanding performer."

Now. I I, what I like about that is it acknowledges the role of serendipity and and luck and that you, you know, "The most successful careers are not planned. They develop." I love that. Yeah. Things just develop, they grow as we move through our life and as we bounce around from opportunity to opportunity and, and put ourselves out there.

And I also love the concept that like to take advantage to know, like, how do you know which opportunity is to jump on and which to say no to? Right? Which is another huge thing.

[00:24:58] Steve: Oh yeah.

[00:24:59] Tyler: Because the more selective you are, potentially the more successful you can be. But if, again, if you don't have that direction, if you don't know yourself, your strengths, your method of work and your values, you might say yes to the wrong opportunities or opportunities that take you in a a direction that's counter to yourself and you don't even know it.

And I find that fascinating.

[00:25:20] Steve: That is fascinating. Hmm.

[00:25:24] Tyler: So, let's see. Do you have any other thoughts about this concept of optimizing your life for serendipity?

[00:25:31] Steve: The only other thing that I can think of is leaving space for boredom or contemplation or like just quiet space where there's, there's intentionally nothing to fill that space. You're just letting letting, letting the ideas come or, or not.

[00:25:55] Tyler: Would you call that like meditation or mindfulness, or?

[00:25:58] Steve: it could be, yeah. Meditation. It could be just when I'm standing in line, not pulling out my phone, and instead people watching or

[00:26:10] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:26:10] Steve: thinking about something else or letting a new idea come in rather than noticing the feeling of boredom and trying to quash it immediately.

I don't know that I can point to anything particular that has come of that, but I like the idea of leaving room in my life for space, intentional space that something can come in and fill that I didn't bring there. I don't, I don't know. Does that make sense?

[00:26:42] Tyler: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think depending on a person's background or, you know, you might call it different things, like what you said to me resonates a lot with like, the concept of pondering or maybe even prayer, but also it might be some people that might be meditation, boredom you mentioned.

That's, that's another thing I actually we could talk about this some other time, but I went through a period of my life a couple years ago where I was so bored, like chronically bored with my entire life that I started reading research, like peer-reviewed scientific article research about boredom. Cause I was like, what is happening to me?

[00:27:20] Steve: Oh wow. Okay.

[00:27:21] Tyler: So there can be too much of a good thing. Like I was, I wasn't depressed or anything, you know? I wasn't like that. I was just like bored.

So we could talk about That's a whole other can of worms. But, but yeah, I think that it, but boredom in those papers that I was reading, like Yeah. It's often, you know, certain types of boredom anyway are connected with the idea of creativity, right? And inspiration and, and, and letting your brain figure things out.

So definitely,

[00:27:46] Steve: Okay. Yeah. Well, I think that probably wraps it up for today.

[00:27:54] Tyler: yeah. Thanks for bringing up this topic. I love it.

[00:27:57] Steve: Yeah. Leave space in your life for serendipity, because good things will come. Don't be afraid to plan, but also don't be afraid for new, unexpected things to come along.

[00:28:08] Tyler: Be afraid not to plan is what I would say. I'm a big, I'm a big planner too, but yeah, definitely acknowledge

[00:28:14] Steve: is important,

[00:28:15] Tyler: Yeah.

[00:28:15] Steve: but

[00:28:16] Tyler: Cool.

[00:28:16] Steve: the, it's not the goal. The plan is not the goal. The the goal is growth and development.

[00:28:22] Tyler: Right.

Okay. So Steve, you and I have talked a lot about what this topic means to us. I want to extend the invitation to any of our listeners. We'd love to hear about your experiences with luck and serendipity in your life and your career, et cetera.

[00:28:37] Steve: Absolutely you can email us anytime. What's the address? hello@notaboutmoney.com

[00:28:45] Tyler: That's

[00:28:45] Steve: that will go to both Steve and Tyler and we will read it. Love to hear from you. Well, thanks Tyler. This has been a good discussion. We'll, we'll see you all again on another episode of, It's Not About the Money.

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